SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Annie Farmer is one of many people who testified in court about Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. She says they sexually abused her when she was 16 years old. And she's also been a leading voice in calling the Department of Justice to release all records related to Jeffrey Epstein. Now the DOJ has made what may be its final public disclosure of documents in the case, including unredacted pictures of nude women or possibly girls, as well as the names of victims. A DOJ spokesperson told The New York Times the department was addressing victim concerns and making additional redactions. And with all this in mind, we wanted to hear from Annie Farmer again. Welcome back to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
ANNIE FARMER: Thanks for having me.
DETROW: You've been vocal about wanting all the documents released. Your sister Maria was one of the first whistleblowers in this case. She made a complaint to the FBI way back in 1996. It's a complaint that went unacknowledged and uninvestigated for decades. I'm wondering, how does this latest, maybe final, release make you feel?
FARMER: I'm feeling really upset. I, this weekend, as I was sorting through files and people were sending me things, just became aware of how many violations of the law there were in terms of victims' names coming out, as you mentioned, nude photos of girls or young women. It's really disgusting.
DETROW: Look, on one hand, there's pressure to get these documents public, and at the same time, the law made it clear files needed to be fully redacted, and that didn't happen. The names and images should never have been released. What do you make of that?
FARMER: Honestly, at this point, it's hard not to wonder if this is intentional in some way. It feels like weaponized incompetence. If you see some of these documents where there will be a list of 50 names and one is redacted, you know, there's just no explanation for how it could have been done so poorly. They've had victims' names for a very long time. I don't think this is just about rushing to get this information out. It feels like they want us to give up on transparency, and it's extremely problematic how they've gone about doing this.
DETROW: I mean, the internet is such a weaponized place at this point. Have you had conversations with other people who have been in your position, who have been vocal about this, about what to do at this point, when names and pictures are being circulated?
FARMER: I think a lot of people are feeling a bit at a loss of, you know, how to best proceed because it is beyond what any of us had worried about. But what I do feel clear about is the fact that we still believe transparency is important, and we're not giving up on demanding that the law be followed.
DETROW: What we're talking about right now is a huge concern. In the bigger picture in terms of the information released, the new revelations in this trove, what to you was the value of this? Do you think anything important has been learned? Do you think anything important has been underscored in terms of the scope of what went on?
FARMER: Yes, I think a couple things - one, that victims have been speaking out for a long time and have been, you know, naming names and that, you know, there's clear evidence of very consistent reports over time. But what is not clear is what was done to investigate. You know, I think we see that there was a very strong case in, you know, 2006 that was - you know, the Feds were trying to put together. And we know, obviously, with that sweetheart deal, it didn't unfold the way anyone believes it should have. But even after that, you know, you can see records of people sharing information. And that nothing was done for so long, I think, is extremely problematic. And you also see just how deep ties were that Epstein had to people in positions of power - wealthy people in - people in government. You know, you can just see clearly how that web of power protected him.
DETROW: Given all this, what is your response to Department of Justice officials saying that additional charges for anyone are unlikely at this point?
FARMER: I think that it is really disturbing to know that, for example, you can see Virginia Roberts Giuffre was providing detailed information about the scopes of these crimes in 2011. You know, there's depositions that include names of other individuals that she reported. So when they say, you know, the information's not there to pursue charges, I just - I would say, you know, what did you do with this information? Where's the evidence of the investigation that shows charges are not warranted? That, I think, is - it's not clear. It's very hard, you know, with so many files and them being so disorganized, to see the trail of, you know, what was done to follow-up on things. But so far, I think we have a lot more questions about why.
DETROW: You talked to Morning Edition about this last summer, and you told my colleague Leila Fadel something that I wanted to ask you again about. You said that the evolution of this story - your story - in public has left you feeling out of control, like you're not being considered or included. And I'm wondering, has that feeling changed or evolved at all for you over the past six months?
FARMER: You know, I think there have been times when personally, I have felt a lot of agency in being able to highlight these, you know, crimes, to explain them to others and to highlight the negligence of the government, right? But I think, you know, a moment like this, again, you know, my own personal information, you know, being date of birth, phone number, things like that, leaking out certainly makes me feel out of control. But I really feel so much worse for those - you know, I had a decision to come forward. And I know there's so many, for lots of good reasons, that chose not to come forward. And it - I feel really sick to my stomach just thinking about the fact that because of the way this was handled, they feel so out of control right now.
DETROW: Yeah.
FARMER: And in some cases, you know, may feel very unsafe because of their circumstances. And so I'm - yeah, I'm just really thinking about those women now.
DETROW: You're a licensed therapist.
FARMER: Yes.
DETROW: I'm wondering how your training has helped you navigate all of this.
FARMER: Well, I think it's been really crucial for me in being able to sort of put into perspective my own reactions to some of this. You know, there's so many levels of trauma in this story. And it's certainly not just what happened, you know, initially with Epstein and Maxwell. It's really understanding that what's happened with these institutions, it can be just as traumatizing, if not more traumatizing. And so having those conversations, I think, amongst survivors, being able to draw on that and bring, you know, some of that information and normalize that, I think, has been very helpful.
DETROW: Given your professional background, given your personal experience in this, I'm wondering what your advice is to other survivors in your situation, as this all plays out in a very public way.
FARMER: I think that it's really important for people to understand that, you know, there is a difference between healing and justice in the sense of, you know, what can come from, you know, the government or from our justice system, right? That really healing oftentimes is about finding your places where you feel safe, and oftentimes that's in community with others. And so knowing that, you know, there are people that want to support you if you've been through this, being able to name it and speak it and find your people is such an important step towards finding the healing that you deserve.
DETROW: That's Annie Farmer. Thank you so much for talking to us.
FARMER: Thank you.
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